In this episode you will hear the second half of a powerful conversation with Johanna Moore, MD, physician, medical director, and founder and owner of She is Money.
Dr. Moore shares:
…and so much more, you don’t want to miss a minute!
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Note this document may have human or computer generated errors in transcription. Refer to audio file for the actual conversation.
Dr. Gray, host 00:00
Welcome back to this week's episode of The Dare To Dream Physician podcast. We're picking up today on the second half of a powerful discussion with Dr. Johanna Moore, who is a physician, medical director and founder of She is Money, a society that helps eradicate overwhelm and disappointment in women's lives and support ambitious professional women to live their own version of success. If you haven't yet listened to the last episode, I highly recommend you go back and listen to Episode 15, The Joy Of Honoring Self-Integrity. After you're done listening to this one. As I preface last week's episode, for any guys out there who are listening to this episode, please don't stop listening. This interview with Dr. Moore, will help you better understand, support, and love any high achieving women in your life. She could be your wife, your sister, your mother, your daughter, and or your colleagues.
Dr. Moore, guest 00:55
I think I was unhappy for quite a while at the point where I decided that enough was enough. And I felt like my career was not really moving forward the way I wanted it to and my ideas about where it should go. I was starting to voice them at that point. And that wasn't really going very well for me. And I think that when I started to really listen to my heart, I realized that every person's journey is their own. And I was relying heavily on my direct boss and the partners that I worked with, to give me what I wanted, and that they really, it wasn't really in their agenda.
Dr. Moore, guest 01:56
And so I had to create something that was me. And I actually, I looked around for a new job, I looked at other locations I asked around, and I actually I called them up my mentors. And I kind of told them the situation like this is where we're disagreeing and what can I do. And one of my mentors who I adore and think is so amazing. And she does a lot of work with position, overwhelm. And she was a director of one of the programs, one of the academic centers, and she said, "Nothing, you can't do anything." I was like, what, I did not expect that to come from her. And it just gave me more motivation to figure out how to make my situation the way I wanted it to be, and to live my life on my terms. And so I actually quit my job. And I stayed in the area, and I started my own Corporation, and I did my own thing. And just add, I can remember when I quit, my boss said that he could not believe that I was putting my family and myself in such Jeopardy by leaving.
Dr. Gray, host 03:20
Dr. Moore, guest 03:21
And I was like, Okay bye-bye, this is not where I want to be. This is this is definitely not where I want to be. And I had a few hard months there because of Medicare reimbursement taking 90 days, but I put everything together, I worked outside of my direct subspecialty for a little while I really affiliated with my leadership skills, which was part of the change, really, with the hospital, I gained many of my directorships at that point, and rebuilt and learn a whole bunch of stuff. And eventually, about a year later, I was rehired by an affiliate group with a much better deal, a much better deal. And I ended up bringing in almost the same amount of money that I would have if I had stayed. And I was so much happier because they understood the things that I really wanted to have in my life. And yeah, so that's how I did it. I just jumped. I wouldn't recommend that for most people. What I usually recommend to people who ask me my advice now, is plan for it. Don't just jump but it depends. It really depends on your comfort zone. For me, I had had enough. I wanted to get away from that pain stimulus so much that I was willing to do anything at that point.
Dr. Gray, host 04:51
So I'm curious about that you're in the safe, secure job with income coming in. And it was very radical. For you to say, Hey, I quit and not necessarily have this backup option in front of you. I mean, you're just like, this pain is too much for me, and I don't care what other people are saying anymore. I just quit. Did you just wake up one day and decide that? How did you get to that point?
Dr. Moore, guest 05:17
Yeah, you hit it on the head. I mean, everyone was telling me, you're just a bad employee, like everyone was telling me that; my husband, my financial planner, everyone, and I can remember talking to one of my colleagues who was also suffering, but kind of putting his head down. And he said, Johanna, I really feel like you should just put your head down, do your work, and go home, and enjoy your family and not fight it. And I started crying. And I said, Don't you understand how much medicine means to me how much this job means to me? And, aww I'm like, getting all choked up just thinking about it. He had given up, he's just doing his job the way that he was told to do it. And I mean, he was never retirement. So maybe for him, that was fine. But for me, like a young physician, who thought that this was where she was going to sow her seeds, and grow her life, and it wasn't working out the way that she thought, for me, it was devastating to be practicing in a way that I didn't feel was the quality that I wanted to be practicing in.
Dr. Gray, host 06:48
Dr. Moore, guest 06:49
And I think that you have so many high hopes when you're in the beginning of your education, no matter what job you're in, and then you reach the end. And you realize that maybe the amount of work that you really have to do in order to satisfy your financial goals, or your boss's financial goals or other metrics, is really not the way that you thought that you were going to enjoy your career. And for me, that was a big part of it. And that was really stifling my life,
Dr. Gray, host 07:26
Hmm, wow. Yeah. And I'm feeling that as you're talking about it, and one is that burnout is so rampant in medicine, which is so unfortunate, because I do truly believe as you do that, medicine is a noble profession. We're here to help people to impact people's health, life or death, even, it's sacred. It's not something that we can ever take lightly. And it's not something that at least for me, that I could go into work and say, yeah, I'm just going to let this go. I'm just gonna do it the way that I'm told it's done. If I don't feel that is the right way. And what as you're describing how your colleague had sort of adapted to it, that sounds like a disengaged physician, right? So you go to work, you put your head down, and that scares me. The term moral injury also comes to mind as you were describing your realization.
Dr. Gray, host 08:17
So I recently did a grand rounds presentation at my hospital on physician wellness. And as I was looking at the data, in the 2021, medscape survey, over 40% of physicians reported that they were burned out. And that made me really curious as to what is the definition of burnout, I looked that up. And most research studies use a three part definition. One is emotional exhaustion or loss of enthusiasm for work. Two is feelings of cynicism, also thought of as depersonalization and disengagement. And three is a low sense of personal accomplishment, nobody signed up to go to medical school to be burned out. Unfortunately, a large percentage of us are ending up there.
Dr. Gray, host 08:57
And I just love that you refuse to accept that. I just love the reaction you had to your colleagues and mentors, that you refuse to accept being disengaged to just put your head down. I love that you knew in order to stay true to yourself and stay true to the things that are the most important to you that you had to make a change. So I'm sure there was a lot of uncertainty when this was happening. But I love that you just did a radical act of quitting your job. And it sounds like you made it work. And thank you for being open that it wasn't easy. But it also sounded like it didn't take that long for you to get back to a stable work situation.
Dr. Moore, guest 09:42
Yeah, for sure. Just to go back to your question about how were you so brave or radical to do that, I think that everyone has their own comfort zone. And I think on one end of the spectrum is my example of just deal with it. And on the other end The spectrum is like, going down in flames, and, and I think that one thing that I teach and and one realization that I had over my kind of learning experience has been that there are a lot of places to join other entrepreneurs. And they all talk about living your life on your own terms, and that sort of thing. But I think that, really, it's a spectrum. And I think that as you said, I mean, I love medicine, I love my job. And I value what I can contribute to my community doing what I've worked so hard to do. But at the same time, it doesn't mean that I can't change other aspects of that, of my life. And I think, for me at that job, I, I felt like they did not want me to change certain aspects that were important to me. And it wasn't in alignment with their goals. And that's fine. That's what an employment position is, is that somebody else's baby is the business. And they worked 20 or 30, or 40 or more years to build what they thought was their vision, and you made a contract to work for them.
Dr. Moore, guest 11:24
And if it's not in alignment, then it really is something that you need to consider. Can I get into alignment with that? Or can do I need to do something else. And that's that, I think that's a big part of changing your means goals into ends goals, just going back to that is a lot of things could be an end goal, but you just need to find what it is that lights you up about those things like now, I mean, I don't do that much different stuff than I did when I was at the other job. But my perspective is different. I do do less actual diagnostic work a little less, but not a lot less. I do a lot more leadership and communication and Client Services work now.
Dr. Moore, guest 12:16
But when I do sit down and I look at slides, glass slides, my perspective, isn't I'm going to get through this. My perspective is this slide belongs to a patient who is going through a lot of hell because they have melanoma. And so my perspective changed to align with some of my actions. And then the other actions that I couldn't align with, I changed. So I think that that's, that's really the golden nugget of this whole conversation to me is look at everything that you're doing in your life. Look at what you're doing right now. Are you happy doing that thing? If you're not happy doing it? Either you have to change your opinion about it, or you have to change what you're doing? Because nobody should be working through their life, like the next five hours are hell. That's where burnout comes from, I think,
Dr. Gray, host 13:12
Hmm, yeah. I think that is such an important message for all of us, especially for physicians, because healthcare is going through so many changes. I graduated medical school in 2009. When the short time that I've graduated medical school, I feel like a lot of changes have already happened. And it's happening at a pace where the next 10 years is going to be even more changes and quicker changes. I think that's an important message for all of us to remember. You had mentioned that when you had your career shift how you tapped into more of your leadership abilities. I'm curious about that. Is that something that you knew about yourself even before transitioning, or is this something that you discover about yourself? And if so, how did you do that?
Dr. Moore, guest 13:57
Yeah. Well, I always knew that I was a leader. I was captain of the women's varsity team at Ohio State for swimming. I was chief resident in residency. I always loved leadership, I think my perspective of leadership has changed over time. And in the beginning, it was a competitive thing for me, a power thing like always being at the table. And now it's more like, I know that I'm really good at it. And I help others to come to conclusions that maybe they might not have come to if I wasn't there. So it's become much more of a contribution thing. And a serving thing and much less of a me thing.
Dr. Gray, host 14:53
Dr. Moore, guest 14:54
When I took my first position as a private practice physician, I joined a partnership group with a partnership contract. But because of various political changes, that contract never came to fruition, and my leadership position as a partner as a shareholder had dissolved. And so, for me, it was, how do I fulfill that space. And the easiest way to fulfill that space is hospital leadership. So I immediately started trying to help direct a little the lab and joint committee meetings, all those sorts of things.
Dr. Moore, guest 15:37
And that was sort of, for me, the crux of how I was able to make my career shift was that I had stabilized myself with some directorships and some hospital based work that was completely different from the work that I was doing, I was pure, almost pure Derm path, which is like skin biopsies, and it's an outpatient setting. Most dermatopathologist do not work in the hospital, they don't do frozen, they don't take call. And so all of those things that we usually typically don't do, I had moved into that space. And part of it was because of the leadership poll. And so for me, the transition wasn't as drastic as maybe it sounded. But but that's kind of how I personally did it.
Dr. Moore, guest 16:22
And then, once I got into that space, and started meeting people in leadership, my particular hospital setting is amazing. I mean, it's a very small hospital, I think we have less than 200 beds. The people in administration are here for 20 years, people stay, they don't ever want to leave. The hospital CEO, helps people in the hallway. It's just a lovely, lovely place to work. I work at French Hospital in San Luis Obispo, it's amazing. It's just a little gem of perfection. And so leadership here is easy, because everybody is extremely collaborative and wants to grow and wants to help the patient.
Dr. Gray, host 17:09
Dr. Moore, guest 17:11
Dr. Gray, host 17:12
So you haven't moved at all since you transitioned from the job that you quit from? You've made it worth staying at a relatively small community. It's not like there's lots of other hospitals that you can go and work for or other practices.
Dr. Moore, guest 17:26
Yeah. And I hope that is a testament to my honesty, and integrity, because I don't have that many enemies with the whole transition. So I think I did a pretty good job.
Dr. Gray, host 17:42
Yeah, I think that is actually one of the things that do keep physicians back from having changed the golden handcuffs of this idea of stable income, which is I think, why many physicians, they don't necessarily go out and create their own thing, they joined other or an existing practice or pick a hospital employment job. But the other is also just location, right? I mean, unless you're in this big urban center, most physicians have already moved a lot during their residency, intern year, residency, fellowship, and then to keep having to move every time there's a problem, that their job is also very destabilizing for their family. So that's amazing that you've made it work in that way as well.
Dr. Moore, guest 18:22
Yeah, for sure, just because a lot of your listeners are physicians, I just want to give you a couple of examples of how you can diversify your income. We talked about diversification a lot in investing. But nobody really talks about diversification of your actual income, especially in the physician world. But it's really pretty easy. If you start looking to pick up a little extra cash here and there.
Dr. Moore, guest 18:53
The most important thing when you're looking into it is how much time do I want to trade for my money? That's a really big concept that a lot of physicians don't really understand. So the main thing that I did to bolster my income immediately, was by doing consulting with industry. I very lucky, I had a contact who does industry and she recommended me to a few companies and I started doing pathology work for them consulting and reading slides for them for their studies. And last year, I brought in probably 30 grand doing that. That's a good chunk of money to just have on the side. That's like a bonus basically. And I was really lucky because the company that I had joined that my new employment position part of the reason why we were such a great fit is because they already knew my story. I mean, we're all local. My group farmed me out to work for them. So I already knew all these people. They understood my kind of entrepreneurial zest and my tendencies to go outside of the lines. They appreciated that. They never had a problem with my outside work just so long as I was doing a great job with my inside work and, and actually, I was able to bring in money to them, because the work that I did was processed through their laboratory. So it was actually a win for them as well.
Dr. Moore, guest 20:27
As we're talking about with negotiations, any chance that you can do to align what you want to do with what your employer or your husband or your kids want to do; that always is a win win situation. So me coming to them and saying, Hey, I have this proposition. This will take me this many hours of the day, it won't mess with my diagnostic work, can I do it? It will bring in this much money to you? Well, of course, they're going to say yes. So I think that that was one way that I succeeded. You can post it on LinkedIn, there's a lot of industry on LinkedIn, who are just waiting for some physician to say that they have expertise and whatever. And the other ways, obviously, the typical way, the David Ramsey way, like save, save, save, and put that little amount of money into an investment, and then watch the investment grow, so.
Dr. Gray, host 21:25
Yeah. So the negotiation, I want to just hear more about that, because you said that you do talk to women about negotiating. And I think it's so true, I just think of like myself, and how again, I graduated medical school in 2009. And before then I'd really never had a big girl job. I was a volunteer and AmeriCorps for a year. And otherwise it was all school. And I'm trying to think of my views on negotiating then and negotiating to me thought, ooh, conflict being overly demanding. And it's almost like being a troublemaker. I just didn't want to think about negotiating. Which is I think, very common, even in high achieving women who are really high performers, and who are strong and who know how to ace that exam and ace that task, are not comfortable with negotiation, because that's not something that we're trained in. That wasn't something that we have to get an A and in school. And so yeah, I want to hear your I want to hear your take on that. And maybe even your journey or what you see other women's journey is on negotiating.
Dr. Moore, guest 23:32
Yeah, for sure. So negotiating and managing are both very scary to a lot of people. And were scary to me for a long time. And I think that the reason why, for me was a lot of the people pleasing part. I didn't want to tell someone that I needed something or I wanted something, because they might think that I was demanding, like you said, or that I didn't deserve it. And I think that's another thing is your self security and your image of what you deserve. And I think that if you, if you do know who you are, and you know what you want, then you also know that those things are of great value to other people. You as a sleep specialist, have great value to your community, your hospital, your administration, and I would be very sad to see you sell yourself short. I mean, you work 20 years for it and you're intelligent and smart and a lovely person. And I think that if you go into any interaction with another person, believing that you have a mission, and that you believe in it, it's a true mission. You're job is to convince them to join you.
Dr. Moore, guest 25:03
So I think the first thing that you need to know in a negotiation is: does this person have power? Are they the deciding person? Or are they just the front person? Because then that conversation is very different, you're never going to close the deal with them. And the other thing that you need to find out is what do they really want? So, a lot of times in negotiations, I don't talk that much. I just asked a lot of questions. And that really flushes out a lot of what their background is, maybe this person wants you to only earn 10,000 instead of 30,000. Because they know that they're trying to hire someone else, or there's a lot of different reasons why they want what they want. And so I think the more you can gather about what that is, the more you can maneuver around things in order to make it fit to make you happy.
Dr. Moore, guest 26:02
Let me give you an example. So last week, I was on vacation, and I stayed in a hotel, it was a pretty nice hotel. And when I signed up, they gave me one of those upgrades. And they said, Oh, buy this upgrade, and we'll give you free parking, valet parking and a movie night. And I thought, Oh, that sounds good. So I saw I bought I didn't even look and see how much it cost or anything. Well, turns out that my husband decided we didn't need to rent a car we were in Chicago was a city so so we just Hubered. And so when I got there, I said, Hey, listen, I bought this package, and I didn't bring a car. So can you just take the package off? And I think what really happened was the woman didn't know how to do that. So she said, Oh, you should just keep it because the family movie night is really great. And I was like, oh, okay, and she's like, you get a free movie off of our system. And we bring you popcorn and goodies and candy and drinks. And it's like really fun. I was like, oh, okay, that sounds good. She's like, oh, and the popcorn machine is like a real machine. I was like, oh, okay, I still have no idea how much that cost me. But that sounds fine. So that movie night comes. And first of all, they didn't have a great selection. We brought our Xbox, and it has Disney plus on it. So we were good. And I was like, Well, what are we gonna watch, I guess Wonder Woman again, the movie was there. And then so then they brought the treats and it was a popcorn machine. But it was popcorn put in it. It wasn't a moving making popcorn machine. And then there was no candy, I was expecting the red vine, the movie type Red Vines or M&Ms or whatever. It was just a couple sodas. And so the rest of the week happened. And a lot of little tiny things happened along the week that were inconvenient like that. Normally, you wouldn't really pay attention to but I was paying at a high price point. So I was disappointed. And then at the end of the trip, I decided I think I'm going to ask them to give me some of my money back. And I went down I waited in line and, and is talking to the woman at the counter. And I could see the manager who's the person who I really was supposed to be talking to. She was talking to another couple and the man she was talking to was very upset. He was almost yelling at her. And there was some miscommunication about their stay. And they didn't have room for them for their last night. And he was a very upset. And she looked horrified. She was pretty young, and just did not know how to handle the situation. And if she didn't know how to handle the situation, she didn't have the power to handle the situation. Because what she needed to do was tell him, we've got your back, we will book you at this other hotel that's just as nice. And so I felt really bad for the lady was like, okay, so she can't really talk to you right now. But she'll call you back. So then I kept checking up on her because that was our last night. And every time I called she was putting out some big fire.
Dr. Moore, guest 29:24
So finally at the very end of the night, she called me and all of the things that I wanted to tell her that were complaints. I I didn't feel like they were relevant to her day anymore. But at the same time, I did feel like I didn't get the value I deserved so I still had a need. But I just felt like I didn't want to be another person yelling at her today. And so I actually connected with her Immediately, and I said, Wow, all your Saturday nights like this. And she basically was like, I haven't even worked here a month. But yes. And I felt so bad for her. And I just basically told her, you're doing an amazing job, I totally feel for you. And so then she started talking to me about my grievances. And, and I was like, I really enjoyed my time here. And I really appreciate you guys. But I just feel like this value wasn't there. And I was wondering what you could do about that. And because I had connected with her initially, she was more than happy to help me because she felt like we were on the same team. And the value that I brought to her was, I'm spending a lot of money here. I do this often. I want to come back here, can you please help me to feel like I want to come back here. And so for her, there was a reason for her to do it. And also, she wanted to help me because she liked me. So those two things were very important. And then at the end, because I still hadn't closed the deal. At the end, we decided on something and I said, oh, by the way, we really love your hotel robes and this fancy hotel rooms with the terrycloth inside and they're like shiny on the outside. We really love your robes, how much do they cost. And she says, Oh, just take them, I'll leave a note. If it's like, because that wasn't a monetary value, that was something else outside of her realm of what we were talking about. And so we got these totally amazing free robes that probably cost like 100 bucks each.
Dr. Moore, guest 31:54
So. So I think that is a great example, for two reasons. One is just showing you how to negotiate. But number two, is that you really need to practice negotiating. So if you practice with something that doesn't matter to you, like we were negotiating over a couple 100 bucks, like out of the whole bill. I mean, I might not get it. But it didn't matter that much. It was practice for me. And it was also trying to help her feel good about her night. So try negotiating with your kids, try negotiating with car salesman or things that don't matter that much. And then when you have to do it for the big things that really matter, then you have practice and you feel better about your ask. I think that's really important.
Dr. Gray, host 32:41
I love that I love first I love that story. And then I love your philosophy of practicing. I think that is the solution. Really, I think the reason why a lot of us have difficulty with negotiation is we have no experience with it. But the reality is, like you say, negotiation is everywhere. And actually that helped me to in not being scared of negotiating because now I think of negotiating as just a conversation and connection. And it's part of life. And like you said, you do it. If you think about negotiation as something you do with your kids, your family, your neighbors, the people you interact with that the hotel or the movie theater, then it just becomes like everyday life. In the past. I also thought well, good negotiator is just like a shark, you know, someone who's scary and overwhelming and is no just trying to win win, just be there to compete. And at least for me, that's just a big turnoff. I'm just thinking, is it even worth it to fight that.
Dr. Moore, guest 33:42
And there are people like that. I mean, not every person you negotiate is this sweet girl that I was negotiating with. And I do have tricks to dealing with people who really just want to win.So that's probably another podcast.
Dr. Gray, host 33:56
Or it's something they can learn inside your society.
Dr. Moore, guest 33:59
Yeah, but there are ways to deal with even the most aggressive people in a negotiation.
Dr. Gray, host 34:04
I think that the takeaway is especially women who are traditionally turned off to negotiating, it's a skill that we can learn. It's a very important skill to learn because the name of my podcast is Dare to Dream Physician, we're helping physicians figure out what they really want out of their life, and then to get it and not wait 20 years to get it but to get it as soon as possible. And I think part of that is just learning how to ask for it. Learning how to connect with people and align with people and carve out opportunities that aren't just there waiting for you to sign on the line. Because as you said, that didn't exist for you what existed for you wasn't in alignment with what you needed. And so you have to go out there and make something for yourself.
Dr. Moore, guest 34:52
Yeah, and I think that to me, that's like some of the best part about negotiating, is you Get to create something new, like totally new that just you thought up. And maybe you and the other person thought up together. And it really, to me is almost a binding situation where, like, you really get to connect with that person on making something amazing.
Dr. Gray, host 35:22
Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much Johanna for coming on the podcast, for your time, for sharing your story, for being so honest. And then also sharing so many great tips with our audience.
Dr. Moore, guest 35:37
Yeah, anytime. I can't wait to the next one. We barely just chipped like a tiny piece off.
Dr. Gray, host 35:44
Yeah.So tell us how we can find you. And tell us a little bit more about this launch you have coming up?
Dr. Moore, guest 35:50
Yes, I am very excited to tell you that She.is.Money is getting ready to launch the Society for the first time. And we are opening our doors September one. And SoMoney Society is a society for ambitious professional women who have made it through their training and have air quotes made it in life, but just don't feel like it's quite right. And they want to continue to grow. And they want to continue to become the person that they know that they're meant to be, for their patients or for their clients or their employees or their kids or their family or just for themselves.
Dr. Moore, guest 36:40
I think that there's a lot of women who I've talked to about the society who felt like, No, I'm good right now. Like, I'm not really in crisis. I'm good. And I think that those women are the women who most need to be a part of the society. And the reason why is because I really believe that getting to know other women who are interested in becoming a better person is so important. And you grow through so many different relationships in your life, your college friends and your residency friends, and you move away and often you don't really keep in touch with them. And this is a great way for you to sort of reconnect with people or meet new badass besties and continue to grow and continue to just make your life as fulfilling and as amazing as possible. So if you are interested or anybody you know is interested, please look me up. I am most frequently on [email protected] My Facebook tag is just SheisMoney. And I'm also at www. sheismoney.com. So you can find me any of those places. And I look forward to working with you and meeting you and growing with you.
Dr. Gray, host 38:05
That's so fantastic. And we'll definitely include that in the show notes. I love what you're creating for women, especially for high achieving women, I think it can often feel like a lonely place to be and you hit on the nail, that high achieving woman would just keep plowing through. But having the community for high achieving women to know themselves better, to support each other and to think outside the box and look at different ways to grow, to learn ways to direct their strengths to places that they didn't even think they could go. I think that will be an amazing community. And the story that you shared with us during this interview is a beautiful example of what a strong high achieving woman can become.
Dr. Moore, guest 38:54