Ep 46: Optimizing Mental Well-Being with Dr. Jeannie Lawrence

Most physicians have suffered alone and long by the time they decide to seek help for their mental health.  How do we prevent physicians from getting to that dark place? What can all of us do right now to optimize our mental well-being?

❤️ We examine our language and assumptions. Humans don't have a binary distribution of mental states, we are not either purely mentally well or mentally disordered.
❤️ We start viewing mental health on a continuum.  Where we lie on the spectrum is dynamic throughout our lifetime.
❤️ We stay humble and recognize none of us are immune from developing severe mental illness.
❤️ We stay optimistic and believe all of us can learn tools to optimize our mental well-being throughout our lifetime, not just when we are unwell.
❤️ We intentionally dedicate our time and energy to pursuing activities that bring happiness and fulfillment.
❤️ We work on our minds to build resilience and maximize our full potential.
❤️ We put our resources to create impact and contribute to the world in a way that's meaningful to us.

I adored Part 2 of this phenomenal conversation with Dr. Jeannie Lawrence, a  board-certified psychiatrist, psychotherapist, and coach, who founded the program Emotional Mastery for Women Physicians.

Tune in to this week's Dare to Dream Physician Podcast episode to hear gem after gem after gem on physician mental well-being!

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Resources for Dr. Jeannie Lawrence:

Jeannie Lawrence, MD Website at https://www.jeannielawrencemd.com/

@dr.jeannielawrence on Instagram
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Transcript

Dr. Gray, Host 0:00

Welcome back to another episode of the dare to dream physician podcast. I'm so excited to continue the conversation that I started last week with our guests, Dr. Jeannie Lawrence. She's a psychiatrist, a psychotherapist and coach for women physicians. If you haven't listened to part one last week's episode, go ahead and add that to your queue after you were done with this one, but I suggest you sit down in a quiet place and really just take in what we're going to talk about here, because it is life-changing. On a related note, we are actually coming up near the one-year anniversary of the dare to dream physician podcast. To prepare us for the one year anniversary, I would love to hear from our listeners. And if you have apple podcasts or Spotify podcasts, and you haven't written us a review, please go ahead and write a review of the podcast on there. And reach out to me on any of my social media accounts send a note, sharing what you've gotten out of the podcast this year. And I really, really appreciate listener feedback and I appreciate the encouragement and it's really, when I hear from my listeners, it energizes me to keep going to keep going with podcasting.

1:12

For now, sit back and enjoy this amazing conversation.

Dr. Gray, Host 1:21

I have a two-part question, the first part of the question is for the patients and the clients that come and meet with you, what usually prompts them to seek help. What usually is the last straw or the inciting factor for women physicians to, come to you to seek help. And then the other part of that question is as far as your recommendation, what are some signs or, for, for our listeners, when, when should they start seeking.

Dr. Lawrence, Guest 1:53

Yeah. So, it's usually, uh, something external, right? So most women, and women physicians are happy to kind of. Kind of deal with whatever internal stress they're dealing with. they're okay with that. They're okay with kind of getting by and, things being a little challenging, but powering through that powering through this struggle. But when it starts to affect their marriage or their relationship with their kids, or their work when it starts to expand beyond them, then people become more willing to come in, and, and seek some help. so I think that's probably the most common scenario relationships and, and work in things like that. they've usually been struggling by the way for a long time before it's gotten to that point. that feels acceptable to a lot of people, at least for a while.

Dr. Gray, Host 2:43

Right. That that makes so much sense. And then the other part of the question is, what, what's your advice, for, for physicians in general out there, when should they start seeking help and is that even the right, like seeking help? That's so almost there there's some little bit of stigma just with that term, but, when should they start working on their mental health, maybe is the better. Question.

Dr. Lawrence, Guest 3:08

Yeah, I've kind of big answer to this. I think that I, I agree that, sometimes the term seeking help, even that can be stigmatizing for some people. What I really believe Wally is that. we need to expand our discussion of what mental health really is in the first place. Right? So most of us really just look at, mental illness, and mental health is just being the presence or absence of. Symptoms of mental illness, right. It's very basic and black and white. And so, folks who, have symptoms of a mental illness, at some point, perhaps they know that they should get some help. And then those who don't quite meet criteria for a diagnosis. it kind of feels to them like, discussions around mental health aren't for them. Right. And so there's no need to listen to, anything that this discussion that we're having or anything that relates to mental and emotional health. And I think we need to expand the discussion because really, mental health isn't quite that simple. It's not really just the absence of illness. mental health is really the absence of. Illness in the presence of, wellbeing. It's the presence of positive mental health together. That's what mental health is. And so, while lots of people may not have, a diagnosed mental illness, they, either they don't, or they don't know that they do, Most people have some room for improvement when it comes to, having optimal mental wellbeing. And what I mean by that is, like I said, mental health is more than absence of illness. The wellbeing part is you can imagine that as three main pillars, right? So there's the emotional wellbeing, which is a marker of positive mental health. That's being happy and satisfied with your life and with what you're doing day to day, generally speaking. And then there's the psychological wellbeing, which is, uh, functioning. In a, in a high level way where you are maximizing your potential and making the most of, of the gifts that you have. And then, um, there's a social wellbeing where, you are contributing to society. You're contributing to the world outside of yourself in a way that really matters to you and aligns with you. And. I think that we all want, we all want that, those things I just said. Right. I think we all want more than to not have a mental illness. And, and the discussion doesn't need to stop there. We want to, feel happy and satisfied and, maximizing our potential and contributing to our world in a powerful and impactful way. And all of that comprises mental health and wellbeing. So when you think about it that way, Now the discussion really opens up to a lot more people. Right? it, it becomes something that's not just for them and those other people over there. And not for me, it kind of includes all of us. And I think when, when everybody is included in the conversation around mental health and. Uh, stigma is reduced. there are studies to show that when we conceptualize mental health is more of a continuum instead of this kind of, binary, black and white thing, that, uh, stigma is reduced and it, it also encourages people to be proactive because. like I said, most positions, have a long way to go when it comes to really having optimal, mental wellbeing. And so that means there's things that we can, we can all do, to, to get to, that place where we're feeling and functioning at our very best and highest self. So, I don't know if that answered your question, but

Dr. Gray, Host 6:36

That I love, I love that. I love that there are, there's so many parts of that, that I resonate with because as, as you're naming the three pillars, Wow. This is exactly why I do life planning, which is, to help people once get energized, be able to visualize and get energized to, to have those things, those positive things in their life. And then the other thing, as you're saying, this is I'm thinking, I always have. belief that that we're all in movement, we're constantly in flux and if we're not going towards something positive, then we're going towards something negative. Like, I, I don't think that we're stagnant. Like we just can't stay. Cause even if we think we're staying the same place, the world around us is moving. So like, Um, beings with agency, we have that choice to move towards, something that's upleveling ourselves. Or if we just maybe spaced, we think we're staying stagnant, to me, that's just going towards the negative. And so, especially as physicians, when there's so many pressures that are on us, and, and just life in general, in a world where feeling overwhelmed is the norm for physical. If we are not proactive and actively seeking wellness, I think almost the default is it may be just a matter of time, but eventually we are going to get to that negative pole. and depending on the other thing you said that, that I love To de-stigmatize mental health. We have to think about mental health as something that is for everybody. It's not just for that patient as a medical student that we met in the inpatient ward that started having hallucinations out of the blue. and, and it's sort of my, even there, when, when I was a medical student and I met these patients on the inpatient psychiatric ward, I always try to relate with them. And usually there's a lot of triggering factors in that person's life. if they have maybe the perfect upbringing, the most nurturing environment, they might not even have their psychotic break. Right. And oftentimes it's these little stresses, like, small periods of stress that build up over time. and, and it just gets the people get to the point where they can't function anymore. So it's, it's a lovely view of none of us are immune to, being that patient on the inpatient ward who had their, mental breakdown. none of us are immune to being that person in the article where they seem like they have the perfect life, but how come they were in so much pain that they ended it and, And I think, it is good to really, believe that we have agency in our ability to achieve mental wellness. we know as physicians, we know that, physical exercise is important. It's important for physical health and mental health, but if you don't use your muscles, especially after age 35, you're just gonna lose it. So it's the same thing with, mental health. Um,

Dr. Lawrence, Guest 9:30

I, I love everything you just said. I think it's totally spot on and it's the conversation that we all need to be having. Like you said, I agree that we're not, we're not going to be stagnant. And when it, when you tie that back to mental health, that means none of us can really afford to, not pay attention to, and be proactive about our mental health. Because like you said, the world is always moving around us. Stressors are always going to be coming at us. we all have potential for like, And, difficult circumstances. And so, and those things can move you like, a person who is, without mental illness at this point and into, uh, into, closer to having a mental illness or experiencing a breakdown in their, in their emotional wellbeing. And so I think it's really, important that a physician. learn the tools and skills that they need to, be proactive about maintaining the mental health that they have improving the mental health that they have preventing mental illness. it, it all has to be very intentional. And so, I agree a hundred percent with what you said. No, no, none of us is a immune and none of us can really afford to not, be proactive about taking care of our minds. So.

Dr. Gray, Host 10:39

And the expert has spoken. So in that vein, I'd love to hear your thoughts about, well, how can we be proactive? what's your advice to just physicians who may not currently feel like. that they're maybe needing, immediately to seek help, but that just to, to be proactive, how do we optimize our mental wellness?

Dr. Lawrence, Guest 11:02

Yeah, that's a really good question. it's one that I've tried to answer, in my, my business and. So I came up with, here's the solution that I've come up with, and I'm not saying this is the only one, but, one thing I love about businesses that you get to take. Yeah. You get to think about these big problems, right. And put on your thinking hat and, and really think like, how can we fix this? and so I, I'm a big believer in mental and emotional mastery skills. I think that, it's something, honestly, we should all be taught where we, everybody, but especially physicians, if we're going to be in these high stress, careers, I think it's really important that we understand, uh, the interplay between our thoughts and our emotions and, how we're acting and behaving in life and, and having the skills to, Modulate those things. So in emotional mastery. What I mean, what that really is, is, is teaching and providing tools and support for physicians to understand how to master and deal with emotions that, that are going to come up right. And deal with circumstances so that we're not victims of the difficult things that are in inevitably going to happen in our lives and in work, but, learn how to, call on and bring to us, positive emotion, even though things are difficult process, difficult emotions, because they're going to come, how to relate and have relationships that are connected learning, great communication so that we can maintain. Good relationships with one another. How to deal with overwhelm, how to, what to do with all these self-limiting beliefs that, that a lot of people walk around with that if unchecked can really spiral into anxiety and depression and, and really limit, uh, physicians, potential, I believe that doctors have a lot to give, in the exam room and outside of it. And I think that, when we understand, how to manage our. And how to manage our emotions. The world really opens up. and so, I I've created a program to try to help, provide some of those tools outside of the clinic and outside of the exam room, so that it's accessible to, all physicians. And I I've seen it go a long way. There's there's something. When I think a lot of physicians who are struggling emotionally and with whatever it's anxiety or depression or feeling really disempowered, life is happening, things are happening. And when you don't know how to, Get out of that, that emotional state that is so distressing, it can feel really dark and hopeless. And I think that's a path that, unfortunately a lot of people find themselves on the way to, whether it's substance use problems or a diagnosed mental illness or suicide or something like that. Emotional mastery is really about giving power back to physicians to say, no matter what's going on, I can deal with this. there is hope I don't have to be stuck here. So. That's my take on it on a, on a solution is it's providing more of the skills and tools to physicians.

Dr. Gray, Host 13:53

That is wonderful. can you give us an example of, a tool that you teach and how to apply that?

Dr. Lawrence, Guest 14:00

One of my favorite things to teach us just about how to process a difficult emotion. And a lot of this is based on by the way, cognitive behavioral therapy, which is tried true steadied. tool set, right? That, that I use certainly in clinical practice, but I think it's very applicable even outside of the exam room. So one example would be, perhaps somebody is coming in really, upset about something that happened at work. Maybe there was a. Patient outcome, and they're super worried about it and, really distressed about it. what I like to do is, is show how that ball of emotions, we can put it on paper, talk it out. and then. Look at look at the, the thoughts that are driving that. Look at, whether there's good evidence to support some of the distorted thoughts. Our brains are probably offering up at that, that moment or not. are there different ways that we can reframe this and create a different experience for ourselves so that we can think clearly and problem solve? whatever that situation is in a way that, is going to really serve us instead of being stuck in. that overwhelm and anxiety and all of that negative emotion. So how to process a difficult emotion is probably a 1 0 1. And one of, one of the keys to having that tool set really allows people again, to not be stuck there and disempowered, because. Again, if you, in that example, if you have a negative outcome or something, that's really troubling you at work and you don't know how to work your way out of it, you just stay stuck feeling negatively. That's a slippery slope to go down. So, again, giving that power back by, by teaching and providing those tools and providing that support, cause I do this one-on-one and a big part of it is, having somebody that you can talk to about this stuff, right? A lot of times physicians that come to me, haven't told anybody about what they're, what they're dealing with, because they feel like they should be able to figure this out. They shouldn't be feeling this way or they shouldn't have done this or that. And so, even before we get into tools, uh, a huge part of it is just. Safe space, to, to process it and talk about it first with somebody who gets them because, we're physicians and we do have that shared experience and that connection.

Dr. Gray, Host 16:09

yeah. I can definitely relate to that example and I certainly have experienced that myself and also, seeing my colleagues experienced similar conundrums. One of the questions that I am always interested in, is, what is the balance between, prescribing medications and, using these tools that you're talking about, you know, psychotherapeutic.

Dr. Lawrence, Guest 16:33

That's a good question. So definitely it depends, it goes case by case person by person, but, a lot of things that I consider, like if I'm, maybe consulting with somebody who's wondering, for example, like, do I need medicine or can I just like do therapy or try these tools? one thing to consider definitely is the, The severity of things when, when you're presenting. So if you're let's say mildly depressed, functioning at a high level, maybe do a PHQ nine to give you an objective measure and, your symptoms are on the mild side of things. you have some options, right? most of the evidence that we have, when prescribing medication for depression. it's best for moderate and severe. So, if you're mild and, you're, you're not, too inclined to, to start with medication, I would say that's a reasonable thing, you can try therapy or try these tools. And, that, that would be a reasonable starting point. As long as you're working with someone who can quickly pick up on any changes or worsening, and the way that you're doing, certainly you don't want to be, relying solely on. coaching or, or self-help without, maybe a second set of eyes to push you to a little bit higher level of care if that's would meet what is needed down the road. for people who are presenting with much more severe symptoms at the beginning, then I think a conversation about medicine, should be had. And again, that's, it's still case by case, and it's still something that, you should come to a conclusion with collaboratively, with the person that is prescribing for you. But, I do like to look at how severe, symptoms are mild, moderate, or severe to determine how, How acutely a medication needs to be introduced, versus just therapy or we're learning tools.

Dr. Gray, Host 18:12

Thanks for that explanation. Makes, makes a lot of sense. oh, this is, this has been such a wonderful conversation. Dr. Jeanie, I'm just curious if you have any words of wisdom for our audience, in pursuing their dream life, looking to live life in a way that's meaningful and fulfilling For them. and knowing that, we're we're physicians, some of us are, are working in clinical medicine full time or part-time, or some of us have actually left clinical medicine. what words of wisdom do you have?

Dr. Lawrence, Guest 18:41

Yeah. I love that question. My advice is that. You only have one life and this is not the rehearsal. And so, I think that a lot of times it's very easy to get kind of drawn into, putting out fires and, and surviving, work and surviving day-to-day life and thinking that, if you do that long enough that some, at some point down the road, The skies will will clear and you'll be able to, finally enjoy life. And I think physicians often feel that way. We're masters at delayed gratification, as a part of our training. But I think at a certain point, you have to realize that, we're not going to live forever. that, We only get this, this one, one life. And so it's worth being, intentional about, the ways that we spend it. I, I love the idea of life planning and goal setting and vision casting and all of those things because, it really forces us to, take a step back from the, the, the rat race. And, dream which is why I love what you do, Wally. And, and from there, once you have a vision for what you really want in life, it becomes a lot easier to, make decisions in your day to day about how you're going to be, be spending your time. And so, and when, and how you're not going to be spending your time, which is equally important. So. Yeah, that's my advice your, your life is precious and it's worth, it's worth it. It's worth you enjoying it. even now. And I think, the other part is that when it comes to enjoying life, now, it's not always about the external, tangible things that we want to be different. Right. It's not always about having more money in the bank or, buying a bigger house or moving to another city or, or landing a dream job. a lot of it is. understanding how to, manage your mind and emotion so that, even in your present, you can see and enjoy the beauty in your life because, without a doubt as a physician, you've worked for your heart to get to where you are even right now, and it may not be exactly what you want just yet, but, I bet you can point to some things that are, are really. Worth celebrating. and I think a real key to being able to do that is knowing how to, to, see those things and, and, manage the day-to-day emotions so that you can really enjoy life even today.

Dr. Gray, Host 21:00

Oh, that's so profound. Thank you. I, I, I try to ask that question to every guest, but I never know what they say. And this is, this is so good. It's so true. And I was going to ask. One is I love what you said about, it's not just the tangible things. Cause you might think that your dream is, X, I want to live in a house that's,$2 million and by the ocean. You might be able to get that. I mean, for sure, but it may take a little while to get that. And I actually just, this thought came up when you said, learn to master your mind and master your emotions, which is, we also have to question, well, why are we dreaming the thing that we're dreaming? You know what, because we have to be careful because maybe we're picking a dream that's almost unattainable right now. as opposed to picking something. more like being present and more, just, more attainable because maybe we're afraid of feeling fulfilled. Maybe we're afraid. It's easier to pick something where it's really hard to get, because then you can think, well, when I get there, then I will be happy. But if you pick something that's maybe right in front of you, right. Maybe it's being able to. really take in the moment when you're, going on a hike with your family or just, going on a date with your significant other, you know, things that are attainable and reachable and tangible right in front of you. and if, if, if that is the dream that you pick, then allowing yourself, giving yourself the permission and giving yourself that freedom to. Find the fulfillment in that. And so in some ways I think it's harder. It's harder to say, oh, my dream is actually, maybe it's right in front of me. Maybe I can make my dream happen with what I have right in front of me right now. and that could be actually scarier than this, almost seemingly impossible dream of, having a$2 million house by the ocean. Cause I can wait until, 20 years from now when I can actually afford that reasonably to be happy.

Dr. Lawrence, Guest 23:01

I really love that. It's a really, interesting perspective and it made me think, I think you're right. I think there is something easier about, kind of a far off dream that we have to work really hard and long for. We're used and wired to doing that as physicians, for sure. just kind of being in a rat race and we're in go, go, go, go, go. I think we're more comfortable doing that. Than sitting still. Right. And, being present and doing the work that's required to see and enjoy what's right in front of us with what we have. And so, that, that, that's really interesting that you said that and I tend to agree that it can be harder sometimes to, yeah. Live our dream life today, because it doesn't require that that, that lightening pace and that, that mountain climbing that we're so used to doing. but it can be really satisfying too. And I think it's the best way in my opinion, to make, the best of the life that we have right now.

Dr. Gray, Host 23:56

And, sort of segue into the last question that I have. I just want to preface it with, I think that is exactly why, what you're doing is such important work, which is, mastering our emotions, mastering our mental wellbeing. because. We don't have to wait for that. Right? All the tools that we need for that, you don't need more money to do that. You don't need your dream job to do that. I mean, okay. Would more money help us get there? Would, having that perfect unicorn job out there, maybe help us get there. Sure. But the toolbox that people can use to start optimizing their mental wellbeing is available right now. And, until we start to value our life and value our time and Bo your energy. it's, it's never going to get easier. Like you were saying before. It's not going to get easier to achieve the mental wellness. that the time I think for us to do it is now the time to value our mental wellness is now. I mean, it's not going to. Get easier, tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. so tell us a little bit more, you mentioned your program, tell us more about this program.

Dr. Lawrence, Guest 25:05

Yeah. so this program is one-on-one. I work with women, individually, usually for 12 to 16 weeks. And, we spend that time. Learning how to, master our thoughts and emotions. folks usually come in with a particular area that they want to work on. it might be, limiting beliefs that are preventing them from showing up, Fully as they want to in their business or whatever their side passion is, it might be, overcoming, uh, a stressful situation at work or, a fear that they've had held for a long time. and we systematically go through, uh, a process, my process for, understanding, uh, first of all, That are leading to the emotional state that they're in and then, really disentangling some of those, deep seated, limiting beliefs that folks have and how to deal with, difficult emotions on a day to day basis, how to feel less overwhelmed, how to make tough decisions, how to not be a perfectionist, all these things. And at the end, people are feeling much better internally, but I love seeing the way it spills over externally into their, their lives too. I feel like women physicians, everyone always has so much more to give, than, and, and that's usually what their focus is. And so when, when we are feeling the best that we can internally and feeling empowered, we can handle whatever is coming our way. it shows up in these amazing ways where women are growing their businesses and showing up online and sharing their stories and helping other people. and so, it's work that I'm really glad that I get to do.

Dr. Gray, Host 26:32

That's amazing. And do. they have to be residents in North Carolina or can they be any.

Dr. Lawrence, Guest 26:37

So for my private practice, yes. I only see folks in North Carolina, but one of the reasons that I started the emotional mastery for women physicians program is that it is open to anyone, uh, worldwide, because it's not a clinical program. there's no, uh, mental health diagnosis or a treatment of mental illness, but we are learning the tools and skills to, overcome difficult. And build up our positive, emotional and psychological wellbeing. And so, that that's open to anyone and everyone world.

Dr. Gray, Host 27:08

Oh, that's a wonderful and sorry, to my male physician colleagues who may be listening. but Dr. D if you share how people can find you, how they can sign up for this program. And also, I understand you have a blog and other resources that are helpful for all physicians.

Dr. Lawrence, Guest 27:24

so, my website is Jeannie Lawrence md.com. my name is spelled J E N N I E. And then Lawrence is LAWR, E N C E M d.com. yes, I do have a blog there. You can find out all about my services and contact me through there. And I also have a free resource for anyone listening. it's a guide that I created called, how to have a great day, even if you're overwhelmed and have a million things to do. So it's jam packed, with some, reframes about I'm overwhelmed and I'm meant to empower you. And then there's also some action, actionable steps that are easy to incorporate in that. we'll help you make today a great day. And, your, your next stays even better. Even if you have a lot to do.

Dr. Gray, Host 28:07

Wonderful. And I'll definitely bet in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I so appreciate what you do. and for your time today.

Dr. Lawrence, Guest 28:18

Thank you for having me, Willie, I love what you do. I think the focus on helping people, enjoy their dream life and have it, and even now is so important and well aligned with what I do. And I'm, I'm glad to have been on here and had this conversation. Thank you for having me.