Dare to Dream Physician Podcast

Ep 40: Each Moment is Yours with George Kinder, Father of Life Planning

March 22, 2022 Dare to Dream Physician Episode 40
Dare to Dream Physician Podcast
Ep 40: Each Moment is Yours with George Kinder, Father of Life Planning
Show Notes Transcript

Took a wellness break and feel rejuvenated to keep podcasting!! Cannot wait to share this amazing 40th episode!

George Kinder is an international thought-leader, author, mindfulness teacher, and the Father of the Life Planning movement. He has revolutionized financial advice for more than 35 years by training 4000 professionals in 30 countries in the field of Financial Life Planning.  

In part 2 of this profound 2-part conversation, George and I discuss:

  • What are the five common elements that come up when individuals create their life plan.
  • How life planning delivered freedom to a physician living in despair and allowed him to pursue his true calling.
  • Why financial milestones feel empty without living a life plan. 
  • How physicians can experience freedom by first imagining the dream, then building the architecture to deliver it.

Tune in to hear an inspiring conversation between a renowned international thought-leader and a Dare to Dream Physician on how to help physicians start living meaningful and fulfilling lives.


Dare to Dream Physician Resources:

Dare to Dream Physician, Life Planning for Physicians

 https://daretodreamphysician.com

Dare to Dream Physician on Facebook

 https://www.facebook.com/daretodreamphysician/

DreamPhysician on Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/dreamphysician/

 
George Kinder and Life Planning Resources:

George Kinder's Website: www.georgekinder.com

Twitter: @GeorgeDKinder
LinkedIn: @George D. Kinder - https://www.linkedin.com/in/george-d-kinder-0749196/
Instagram: @george_kinder
Facebook: @GeorgeDKinder

Kinder Institute of Life Planning Website: www.kinderinstitute.com
Twitter: @KinderInstitute
LinkedIn: @KinderInstituteofLifePlanning - https://www.linkedin.com/company/843302/
Instagram: @KinderInstitute
Facebook: @kinderlifeplanning

Note this document may have human or computer-generated errors in transcription. Refer to the audio file for the actual conversation.

Dr. Weili Gray, Host 00:00

This is the Dare to Dream Physician Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Weili Gray. Many physicians today are feeling overwhelmed and unfulfilled living a busy life based on someone else's terms and expectations. My mission is to help physicians figure out what they really want out of life, and how to make their dream life come true sooner than they ever imagined. My fellow physicians, your time to live your only life now. Become a Dare To Dream physician. Great things are going to happen. Make sure you hit subscribe and share this podcast with another physician you care about.

[00:00:48] Dr. Gray, Host: Welcome back to another episode of the Dare To Dream Physician Podcast. I'm so excited you're joining us today. I have a very special once in a lifetime guest and I can't wait to introduce him. I have to say that he is the reason why I have this podcast today. It all started with attending a life planning workshop for me, which has led to so much personal transformation. I know, share a little bit about that later in the episode, but first. Let me introduce, George Kinder is an amazing human being he's recognized as the father of life planning. He revolutionized financial advice, a whole industry for more than 35 years by training over 4,000 professionals and 30 countries and the field of financial life planning. He founded the Kinder Institute of Life Planning in 2003, after 30 years as a practicing financial planner and tax advisor, he has also been named one of the top icons and innovators in the financial planning industry, the first of 15 transformational advisors whose vision most changed the industry and has been inducted into the Financial Planning Magazine Hall of Fame. He has appeared on many radio and television programs.

[00:02:02] His expertise has been featured in print media, such as the Financial Times, The Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Time Magazine and the New York Times. George is a keynote speaker and has given speeches at professional conferences on five continents. As an author, George has published seven books. George draws on 50 years as a mindfulness practitioner, over 30 years as a mindfulness teacher and his experience training financial advisors globally to challenge the basic concepts of economics, our understanding of democracy, of space, time, and our own hearts, Georges to bring greater levels of freedom everywhere.  I could go on and on and say so many more great things, but I better give him a chance to speak. Let's dive into part two of this amazing and enlightening conversation with George Kinder, the father of Life Planning. 

[00:03:02] Dr. Gray, Host: Mm. Well, that's a great segue to my next question. I haven't done nearly as many life planning sessions with clients as you have George. And, but even in, even in the numbers that I have done, most clients who and my clients are physicians, when they do their life plan, some of it is okay. I want to have more control of my schedule. I want to have more control of my life, but there's often just this inner desire, to, to love, to make a difference. And, it's, I, I call that, well, you call it Aloha, this, that, that sort of giving back that generosity. And it's so beautiful. Life planning really gives them the permission to pursue those things that are most meaningful to them. But I'd love to hear from you about, your in, in your decades of doing life planning. I love to hear how clients have been transformed.

[00:03:55] George Kinder, Guest: Yeah. I've got one story that I might tell about a physician and how he completely changed his life. And, uh, and I'd love to share that, but before I go there, let me just share the five things that I see more often than not more often than anything else. What happens. Uh, what's in the life lab, what's in the torch as we call it. The thing that people are passionate about and the number one thing is family and relationship. And so that comes up and we articulate that. And so you see relationships change with children, with spouses, with parents, with their, with their partners, with their community. Beautiful stuff and so that's, that's probably the first thing. And the main thing that comes up more than any other, anyway, the second thing that comes up. I think more than anything else is this qualitative sense and it could be actually an actual spiritual something than mindfulness. It could be, or, uh, perhaps it's explicitly religious, but often it's about some quality of virtue that they feel inside of their life.

[00:04:58] They want to access more, deliver more, be more, live more in, and it's a beautiful thing. Just even authenticity itself. So that's the second most common thing I see. The third, most common thing is something that's outside the box. Creative, I've had so many people who say I'd love to play jazz. On Wednesday nights in the club, and, uh, but it could be nowadays it could be, design, uh, uh, Instagram or Tic Tok posts, it could be, there a whole bunch of things that could be, and just that wild creativity that we all have, or as you're doing Weili, is you're modeling.

[00:05:34] I want to just design a business. That is a real service that really does make a difference in the world and that's wildly creative. That's a beautiful thing. So the third, most common thing is creative creativity and, and it's a beautiful thing. And the fourth, most common thing is, that  we're familiar with this giving back to the communities. In one way or another. And, and then the fifth thing that I seen a lot, and I'm sure we're where you are up in Vermont. You'll see it a lot too. And that is the environment. I care passionately about the planet, about, uh, mother nature. I want to do something or it could be either, I live in the country and I also want to have a spot in the city, but it's something about the environment and in that way. So those are the five most common things. The story is about the physician, this was a really fine doctor, uh, beloved of his, uh, of his patients and, and a leader within his HMO or whatever the name of the organization structure was that he was in and what they didn't realize was that inside of himself, he was eating away.

[00:06:41] And I saw it.  He came into my office and I could see immediately. He was in despair. And he actually had a wonderful, wonderful, partner's spouse, and who was also a physician, but she was less, much less active, more part time. If she was even, she might even even been taking a sabbatical. I'm not can't recall, but she brought him in and she said, he's really suffering and we need to do something. And I know that you do this thing called life planning. So I'd really like to work with you around this. Let's see if this could happen. And he kind of grudgingly acknowledged. He said, I don't know that. I don't know that there's a way we can do anything. And it turns out that when we did it three questions, what he passionately wanted to do, he wanted to be a rabbi. That he chose the wrong profession. He loves the healing and quality, but he had absolutely fallen in love with spiritual practice and with ethics and virtue, and he wanted to teach that and to lead, be a leader and a community builder in that way. And it was, and it was, we wanted to, we tried to get him part time in the community.

[00:07:56] I mean, there are all these things. It was really cool. What we did, we managed it. Uh and he had three teenage daughters and there were challenges with them and all of them and there were challenges financially because the financial wizards that he'd been with had put all his money away in things that you couldn't access or you would only access with great penalties.

[00:08:17] So they were advisors who had never listened. Who'd never really asked this physician who he really was at, what he really wanted to be. So we, we, uh, worked out ultimately a transition, which was quite lovely. And he was, and he helped his HMO.  If that's what it was, become more humane for the doctors. He was the first one who said, I want to work more part time because I need to study for this.

[00:08:49] This is who I want to be. And there was no system for working part time. So they worked that out and I think he made more of a sacrifice than people following him would make because more people has more people bought in. They realized that they could really have the life they wanted and because it was their HMO, why not?

[00:09:08] So anyway, it was an incredible story. And I've written about it fairly widely. So there it's in my Lighting The Torch book, and it's been in a number of articles that I've written but anyway, I hope that's helpful.

[00:09:21] Dr. Gray, Host: And, and so I'm really curious about the story, was that the first time that he went, when he answered the three questions, was that the first time he acknowledged that he wanted to be a rabbi?

[00:09:34] George Kinder, Guest: To anyone other than his wife, that was the first time. And what, what it became I mean, it's so he had to come out. And he had to come out with the physician community. He had to come out and ultimately with his patients, he had to come out with his teenage daughter. And there was a lot of shame around this. A lot of confusion, giving up, there's a lot of questions around money because physicians make a lot of money, right? Rabbis make much less money. Uh, and he lived in a lovely home and a wonderful suburb. And, one of his daughters,  he taught me something wonderful, having a few years later, given birth through my wife to a couple of daughters, myself, I said, you've got to talk with your kids.

[00:10:24] You've got to gather them together, have a family meeting. And he said, no, no, that's not the way to do it, George. And he said, what I need to do is talk with each one of them individually. And that was quite wonderful for me to hear and realize he had a real relationship with each of them individually.

[00:10:44] This wasn't kind of a family decision. This was something that he wanted to honor each of the children in that individual way. And he did that. And one of them was very uncomfortable about the shift because she was very attached to the house. The house was something that, I mean, they were wonderful parents and they were parents to kids from all over in a way.

[00:11:08] The kids, kids from town love to come to this, this family because they were very liberal and very loose and loving and kind and all of that. So, one of the, one of the daughters who was more anxious than the others, uh, was scared about it. So that had to be worked out. And what we worked out was that they would live in the place for five years until she would graduate. And then they were, she was all right with them selling the place because they couldn't have afforded the shift without.

[00:11:39] So there were many other elements to it financially that were fun for me as a financial advisor. and, uh, uh, with, we got him there in, in short order basically. Cause within a couple of years he was really doing it. He just was doing it part time, not quite full time. Yeah.

[00:11:57] Dr. Gray, Host: That's beautiful. That's such a beautiful example of how life planning just really gives someone permission. When, when you listen to that, that dream that might not be socially acceptable, or like you said, maybe, clothed in some sort of shame, which is, not necessary, but that's sort of how often the individuals perceive it. And, when you really listen, you give them that that's that freedom that you talk about, you give them that freedom and in a way that freedom is granted by your intent listening, giving them permission to pursue what they really know that they wanted to do all along.

[00:12:39] George Kinder, Guest: Yeah. I mean, as a financial person, I mean his earlier financial people, they didn't have never asked and they never opened and they never had a real conversation. And if they had, they probably would have said, well, no, you're probably right. You probably won't be able to do it for 10 or 15 years. Cause that was his mindset. I'm not going to be able to even start this for 10 or 15 years.

[00:12:58] Dr. Gray, Host: Mmm. 

[00:12:58] George Kinder, Guest: And they probably would've just said, yeah, the budget says you can't do it. I don't think you could do it. But our mission as life planners is to deliver freedom into people's lives. We only live once. We've only got this one life to go and, and the other thing, weaving back to your profession is that, oh my golly, what, how much of a healthier life we're living who we want to be. I don't know how that helps the immune system, but I know it's gotta help the immune system to know, to, uh, to know that we're really living the person we want to be. And even in every moment we're living that way and, uh, how wonderful a thing that could be.

[00:13:40] And, and to have that as a physician, you go into your meeting with a patient and your patient can feel that in you. Not that you've said it, or you talk about yourself or anything, but they can feel that in a financial advisor, they can feel it in a financial advisor. I know they can feel it in a physician. And the other thing of course is that if you really make this transition, I think you're going to want to build a little bit more time, a little bit more listening into your profession so that the client can feel, as you said that relationship. I don't know if that's in your mindset, but it would be certainly one of the thoughts that would be in mind.

[00:14:16] Dr. Gray, Host: Mmm. Yes. Yeah. That's, that's something that I advocate for certainly, in, in my small sphere of influence, where I practice medicine, I, I am of the belief that you can, I mean, yes , connection building that relationship building that trust is important. They can't just be buzzwords. I mean, you, you can't do it in a five minute meeting. You, you just can't there's, there's not enough time to do that. That's definitely the front and center of what I advocate for.

[00:14:47] George Kinder, Guest: Yeah.

[00:14:48] Dr. Gray, Host: I, I love, I, I've just loved everything that you're sharing. And I just feel so privileged that I get to have a conversation with you, Georgia, because basically everything that you've said, and that was sharing that, this is full circle because it was almost exactly a year ago when I had my, when I attended my first life planning workshop and got life planning. And I, already said that at that time I was actually looking for a way to escape medicine. And not only did I not escape medicine, I fully engaged back into medicine.

[00:15:22] Family life was a big struggle for me. And through, actually incorporating the mindfulness lifestyle that you advocate so much for us to become good life planners for us to become, the, the best listeners by, by adapting that into my life, I've really been able to be more present in, in my life as a mom, as a wife, as a physician. And, and it's, it has been so much richer. In fact, when I thought of becoming a financial advisor, it was because I actually was able to manage my money quite well.

[00:15:57] And before then probably like a typical financial  advisor. I was so focused on the numbers. I'm like, this is my goal. I didn't really know why I have this goal for a target, but this is my goal. And I actually met a milestone. I wasn't quite at my goal, uh, at that time yet, but I had met a milestone.

[00:16:14] I looked at the number and I really, there was really nothing like I was like, what should I celebrate? I don't even know who to share this with, except for my husband, it's great. We hit this number that we're targeting. And, but then what, it was, it felt empty. And, and that's what I love about financial life planning, which by the way, we're, we'll refer, our listeners to the website because most of them are like, I have never seen this in a financial advisor. I've never gone to a financial advisor that actually asks us what we want or even listens to us. And, but it is for me actually, I became much less interested in money and.

[00:16:48] Dr. Gray, Host: And look now, look at money more as a tool. And my life has been so much richer as a result, and it doesn't necessarily mean that I actually have less money in the bank. I still try to have good financial habits, but it's just, it's not that important. And, and, and, but I, my life is so much richer as a result of this shift and after getting life planning.

[00:17:10] George Kinder, Guest: Yeah, beautiful. And the, the, uh, everybody's got dreams and, the, the poorest of us and the wealthiest of us and life planning is meant for everybody. And so the, it isn't about, I mean, we do have, we may have a number and I've had numbers, like just as you're describing them as well, but the real, the real truth of all of this is find what your passionate about and build that architecture of money around it so that it supports it and it makes it happen and don't put it off. Life planning makes sure that you're on target in a matter of months, at most a year or two, that you're really on target for living the life that you're meant to live. Yeah.

[00:17:53] Dr. Gray, Host: Yeah, thank you so much, George. I'd love to hear more about the other projects that you have going on.

[00:17:59] George Kinder, Guest: Yeah, I, well, I would, I would, I'd love to tell a little bit about the Golden Civilization and tell a little bit about my relationship to life planning coming out of this long COVID or whatever it is that I've got, because that that's also something that has to do with a patient. And how you help to heal patients.

[00:18:20] And, uh, so if I may, I, do you have, do you have the time?

[00:18:21] Dr. Gray, Host: Yeah. of course.

[00:18:23] George Kinder, Guest: So, so the, you asked me earlier, what is freedom? And we talked about life planning, largely it's freedom, but then you mentioned mindfulness and I'm in the process of writing a uh, a number of books and this is quite extraordinary coming out of the fatigue that I've been wrestling with, but one of the books is called The Three Domains of Freedom and the, and the key to it is the subtitles.

[00:18:53] There's three subtitles. So The Three Domains of Freedom, each moment is yours. Your life is yours. Civilization is yours. So each moment is yours is what mindfulness delivers. The more we do mindfulness. So we realize we can tap into that experience of freedom. Anytime we want, just let our thoughts go. Let our feelings be, come back to just this moment.

[00:19:27] Each moment is yours. Your life is yours. Is what we've been talking about is it's time for physicians to take their lives seriously and not be governed primarily by the institutional structures that surround them.

[00:19:42] Dr. Gray, Host: Hmm.

[00:19:43] George Kinder, Guest: Take the power that they've got and make their life their own. And then you're living your life is yours. So that's a domain of freedom. The third one is the one we find most problematic, perhaps right now, facing issues with democracy and with the planet and with the institutionalization of our professions and that is civilization yours. But it's how I live. It's what, and I wrote a book about it. I went on a world tour, uh, in regard to it. And, uh, I believe it's time for us to make, to, to make civilization as rich and as extraordinary and as freeing for all people as life planning has made it for you and me.

[00:20:24] Dr. Gray, Host: Hmm.

[00:20:25] George Kinder, Guest: And we do it in a similar process. We gather together and imagine what would be a great civilization. And then we put together the architecture to make it happen. So there's, I've written a lot about it. You can read about it. I'm not going to go into it a lot now, but I just want to say that in all of the pessimism and the doubt and the despair that we're feeling, this is, this is where I'm going. And, uh, and I think we can do it.

[00:20:47] And I think what Weili is doing, what you're doing Weili, is one of the movements that needs to have. And what we're doing in the life planning movement is one of the movements that needs to happen to make the institution serve freedom and serve human beings. Ultimately serve the planet and serve democracy as well, but really serve people.

[00:21:12] Just briefly my story with long COVID or I had pneumonia, just, just as COVID is taking off just, just, just as the whistleblower in Wuhan, is that a great doctor there? The ophthalmologist is blowing the whistle and saying, we got a problem Huston and, uh, and the Chinese government is clamping down, but, uh, but eventually the word got out and of course it had to cause the disease spread so rapidly. I got pneumonia on a flight from Maui to, uh, from, uh, San Francisco to Maui. Um, just before Christmas. And it was, I was sitting next to someone from Santa Clara county. They coughed all over me, Weili. It was one of those times where you go, I can't believe that airplanes allow people to do this. Now, of course they don't, but they did then.

[00:22:03] And I was just going to, how can an airplane let someone do this? And I arrived in Maui and within three or four days, I was diagnosed with pneumonia, I had tremendous fatigue. the usual pneumonia, I didn't have the toes and all that kind of stuff, but I had an ear issue as well, an infection in the ear. And, and, uh, and I got, I got over it except for one major thing, fatigue. A little bit of stuff in the upper respiratory area that comes back periodically. It could be a little bit of asthma, I don't know, but mainly it's fatigue. And I have lived with that fatigue now for two years, it's been two years and I, what it means is, I mean, you see me, you see me with all this energy and enthusiasm and all that. And the truth is that I can, I manage every day. I managed to have somewhere between three hours and six hours of incredible energy. I've dedicated my life to cultivating energetic, you know,met with mindfulness and all the rest. So I have three to six hours of great energy. Sometimes it's just three hours.

[00:23:10] And, uh, and I spent three to six hours that I didn't used to spend during each day prone lying down. Um, and during that time, but during that time, I'm, I'm active, I'm productive. I'm doing active, lying down meditation. I do not. I do not. I am, I am engaged. Uh, and I, I am engaged to, you know, you take the cards you're, you're, you're, you're dealt and you do your best with them.

[00:23:39] So that's what I do. And it's really a lesson, I think for all, I could be less than for any patient. How do you do your best with what you are, what you, what your, what you've been delivered. So not only that, but here in addition. So I also sleep for 10 hours. I make sure I'm in bed for 10 hours.

[00:23:56] And generally I sleep. Sometimes I sleep 12 hours and just, I have to with the fatigue, but, but here's the thing, I've during this two year time. I've completed one major book, that was a legacy book for me of poetry and photography that is filled with mindfulness practice in nature. It's an environmental book as well.

[00:24:19] It's kind of a book of hours going through the year and I'm giving it free. You can get, go to my website, Georgekinder.com. You can get it for free in your, in your email. So I've, I've done that. I produced an album with my daughter, London Kinder. She and I wrote an album of protest songs, uh, about democracy and about, freedom and about the environment.

[00:24:41] And we produced it and it's on Spotify. You can find it there. I also have in production, five more books. All of which I would expect to be available within a two-year timeframe. They are very, very close to. It's just rolling out the productivity of them. Just rolling them out. So here I am with post viral fatigue, long COVID something I tested for antibodies like six or six or eight months later.

[00:25:10] And they couldn't find them. Uh, so there's a different debate over whether they could have gone or, who knows. Uh, I've been incredibly productive and it's because I live with those three questions and I live with that question of ideal day, ideal week, ideal year. What, how would I really live? If I were to live to the fullest, I could possibly live with my life.

[00:25:37] And this, this is, this is, this is what I do. So I, I'm a patient. And, uh, and I, I need, I need my doctor. I need other doctors, but I'm also a patient who's working with healing themselves and my doctors helped with that.  Living my life helps with it.

[00:25:55] Dr. Gray, Host: That's beautiful, George, thank you for sharing that. I, actually, as I was preparing for the interview, I was hoping you might share some points of view from just being a patient because you're, probably you're the first guest that I have on the podcast who's not a doctor. I mean, I have, I have interviewed doctors who are patients, but, you're, you're the first who, who's not a doctor and I actually would have, I, that was one of the things I had hoped that you would touch on.

[00:26:21] And, and I didn't know any of this story. Not knowing any of that background. I think that is so important for us as physicians to keep in mind that, whoever walks through our exam room, whoever walks to the door, They have they're human beings and they have their aspirations. They have, maybe they don't know, call it a life plan, but they have their life plans.

[00:26:44] And, what we provide for them even if it's a little bit of a hope, a little bit of listening, that helps them keep going. It gives them hope for their health because health is just one aspect of, of, of their life they have and, and I love that you take such,  that you have so much agency, on, on your life, despite, suffering from your, your health symptoms.

[00:27:08] And that's so inspirational to hear, but it also gives me more inspiration as a physician to do the best that I can, and cause sometimes we don't have answers like long COVID, like post viral fatigue. Unfortunately we don't have a lot of answers, but I know that there is value in listening and validating because that's the thing.

[00:27:31] When patients tell us things that we don't understand. I get really curious about it when you hear enough patients tell you symptoms that the medical profession in general doesn't have answers for an explanation or a mechanism for you start to see a pattern. Right? And that's usually how we make big breakthroughs in medicine, and that's how they discover Lyme disease and, and we're still learning more about that.

[00:27:53] So I, I, I, I love that you shared your story and thank you for sharing that. And also thank you for sharing how, despite the health struggles that you have, you are living your life plan. Really to the fullest. You're, you're still, I mean, I don't know how you do it. I'm trying to figure out the timing of all of this, but it does give me more inspiration to take advantage of the energy that I do have because it is, I don't, I don't know when my last day will be. I hope it won't be soon, but I don't know. None of us know.

[00:28:24] George Kinder, Guest: Yeah. Yeah. And, and just one more word for your physicians. I'm sent to experts, people will want to look at my lungs to look at my heart and all that says it's one of the first things that they kind of eliminate as being a problem when you're doing something like post viral fatigue and, and I've also been to neurologists and that there there's a layer with specialists.

[00:28:44] And, but it's also with physicians as well. The ones that just brushed me aside and just I'm a numbers guy. Look, I just want to see what these numbers are and let me diagnose you with the numbers. I get so little from them and I almost get into a battle with them because I want them to hear me and to hear what I'm going through.

[00:29:04] And all they want to do is analyze the numbers and do the tests and all of that. And then I have some other people who are really brilliant at the top of their profession, who I've met, who are totally brilliant with the numbers, but they also listen. And I have gotten so much from those meetings and given me so much encouragement, uh, I, I feel better. I feel like I, and I feel like I've got another way of approaching internally what I'm going through, uh, in my life. So anyway, that's it, it's a wonderful thing that you're doing Weili, and let me know if I can help support it in any way that I can. Yeah.

[00:29:45] Dr. Gray, Host: Yeah, thank you so much. And I'll put a plug for Registered Life Planners. I just became a Registered Life Planner. I'm wondering about probably the few life planners that don't do financial planning because I decided to stay in medicine. But I, I, I do have a process where I do like planning for physicians and they can always, always follow up with a financial planner after that.

[00:30:04] If money is a big part of getting that plan executed, but they're also. Financial planners, a lot of my classmates for my cohort, that are doing Financial Life Planning, which I think is absolutely amazing. I wish every single financial planner could do that. But in the meantime, you've trained, uh, many of them.

[00:30:22] And, and, and I think that is the type of financial planner I will recommend to my friends. and so I'll, I'll put those links in the show notes and also to George's websites and, and, and, and. Get to talk a lot about mindfulness, but I know it's your passion. And I am really, it's one of those things where I actually had to hear it many times from different people, on how amazing it is. and, and I know you mentioned, when, when you're in bed, not having much energy or meditating. I know you've been before this ordeal. You have been a regular and routine meditator. And, and, and I appreciate you putting that out in the world because, I do believe that we need more of that in our, in our society.

[00:31:06] Dr. Gray, Host: And certainly as physicians, that, I think, is a way that we can help heal our profession. If more physicians can also, incorporate mindfulness into their lives.

[00:31:17] George Kinder, Guest: Uh, absolutely. I've had many, wonderful experiences in life and many successes, but I think the best thing I ever did for myself was starting that process of mindfulness as a regular part of my life, uh, more than 50 years ago. Uh, and, uh, I've averaged several hours a day.

[00:31:37] Believe it or not, again, trying to figure out how, how you can do some many things. Uh, but, it gives you energy and it gives you peace and it clears the decks so that you're not, uh, your self-orientation is not getting in the way. It's an incredible thing.

[00:31:52] Dr. Gray, Host: Yeah. Yeah. That's wonderful. Thank you so much, George. And, yes, I want to keep collaborating.

[00:31:59] George Kinder, Guest: Wonderful. Yeah, me too. Me too. All right, Weili. Thanks so much.

Dr. Weili Gray, Host 

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